Guest Episode: Final Crisis #2

[JohnMayo]

Thanks again to Chris and Juan for the Guest Episode.

Okay, Final Crisis #2...

Interesting comments about the sliver cover. Frankly, I didn't give those covers that much thought.

One the first page, the character that looks sort of like the the Spirit could riff on Midnight, a knock-off of the Spirit published by Quality Comics who was a member of the All Star Squadron. Either way, it doesn't really matter.

I loved the double page spread. The monster fighting aspect was a nice touch. Interesting that none of these Japanese characters seem to have any connection at all to actual Japanese superheores such as the Kamen Riders or the Super Sentai teams. At least there is a nod to Ultraman with the Ultimon.

Given the amount of time spent setting up Super Young Team, I really expected them to play a larger part in the story. Very little in this scene really establishes these guys as anything more than cosplayers.

I wasn't familiar with Sonny Sumo prior to this issue. Does knowing his backstory add anything?

So, why exactly is Shilo putting together a team? Does he think he can win the cosmic war that was already lost? Why is he recruiting Sonny Sumo? Heck, how did he even know where Sonny would be?

The Black Adam-ish word search never really played well for me in this series. The prior issue did technically establish the Word of Attention but never explained what it was or did.

Why is "Thesaurus Lad" sketching Overman, Overgirl, Captain Adam and the evil Monitor? It is already established that he remembers "dreaming" his existance as a Monitor.

I completely missed the footage of the Martain Manhunter's death on the television in the first panel on my initial reading.

How and why did Turpin get out of the Dark Side Club? It seems a bit odd for him to be going on like the meeting with Boss Dark Side never happened.

The mention of a resurrection in the one page funeral for Martain Manhunter bothered me. It really undercut any possible sense of the death being remotely permanent.

Good catch on the Flash being at a computer reading the internet during the scene at the JLA headquarters.

The damage to Orion's skull could have easily been from the beating he took in Death of the New Gods, Countdown or any number of places.

Given how often JLA members have helped out the Guardians in the past (altough that may be out of continuity on New Earth), I would think that this local crime fighting club would be a lot more respected by the Guardians and an Alpha Lantern.

Great catch on the radion bullet. Batman clearly states here that the bullet left no other trace of its passage. While the bullet is found in the next scene, it never seems to make it into the possesion of the JLA for Batman to take. And, on the third page from the end of Batman #683, Batman is clearly taking the radion bullet from the Hall of Justice for further study. (Which begs the question of why the Hall or Justice doesn't have the state of the art equipment Batman needs.) That does seem like a huge plot hole. Again, great catch, guys.

I was curious what Opto was hearing too. I can understand how an alien might hear things humans don't but it seemed very like a way too convenient plot device.

In the scene where Hal is arrested, his Lantern is clearly visible. Doesn't he usually keep that thing invisible in order to keep it safe? Just seemed a bit odd.

Superman taking off to protect his secret identity seemed a bit forced. Doesn't he have robots for times like this? And is it just me or does the "S" on Superman's chest seem to havea must thicker outline than usual?

While there is no mention of the radion bullet at this point, clearly Batman must have it in his belt at this pint since he is taken captive in this scene with Alpha Lantern Kraken.

As for the ring imprint, John hit a ring hand wearing a white glove. Kraken doesn't wear the standard Green Lantern uniform with white gloves. Why would she disguise herself in a standard Green Lantern uniform but not mask her identity in any meaningful way? John seems to immediately recognize her. It doesn't make any sense.

"Black Alert" is yet another phrase introduced to create a sense of urgency.

The energy things Kraken uses to attack Batman remind me of the Goa'uld from Stargate SG-1.

I'm still a bit unclear how Granny was able to take over an Alpha Lantern.

What is Kamandi doing at Command D? How did he get there?

Kamandi can't be the last boy on Earth not under the sway of the Anti-Life equation since at this point it hasn't been unleashed yet. And, even after that, apparently some poeople are naturally immune to it so it stands to reason that at least one of those people would be a boy. Tattooed Man's son in Final Crisis: Submit is one such example.

Sundoller Coffee was introduced in 52. More information can be found here.

I had missed the planting of the bomb by Clayface. That makes the sense make more sense. Before, I was thinking that Clayface was after the information on the missing kids that Lois had.

The thing that kep Superman's secret identity safe was the bomb that just went off, nearly killing everyone there. (I'd love to see a similar scene someday in a comic revealing most of the people in the office to be super-heroes.) Given how fast Superman can be, I'm surprised he wasn't able to react fast enough to do anything.

Final Crisis: Superman Beyond is essential reading for Final Crisis.

I was wondering if you guys would catch the fact that the Flashes didn't actually meet at the community center but at Jay's home. Post-Crisis on Infinite Earths, Grant Morrison established that for a while (10 years? 30 years) Keystone City was frozen in time and that Barry synced up with it in a story that mirrored the classic first meeting of the characters. (See here.) Presumably in that story (Secret Origins #50), Bary and Jay first met at the community center. Of course since Jay was stuck in Keystone City an the community center is in Central City, I'm not sure how that would work. Seems like Grant Morrison ought to reread his own stories before referencing them...

Why would there be a seismic pulse when Martian Manhunter was killed? There was no indication of that in the first issue. And last issue, the JLA didn't seem to know much about the New Gods, now Wally recognizes the new Mobius Chair? And when did Batman have time to tell Wally his theory about the bullet fired backwards in time? How and why is the chair the scope for the gun? That doesn't make any sense to me. Of course, I'm still confused about when/where/how Metron lost the Mobius Chair in the first place.

The scene with the Flashes was cool but felt tacked on and not really part of the issue.

And, yeah, I expect that Final Crisis: Superman Beyond will take a bit of time to explain. A ton of stuff happens in those issues. Are you going to do both issues at once or one episode per issue?

Overall, great stuff again guys. I look forward to the future episodes...

[Koete]

I wasn't familiar with Sonny Sumo prior to this issue. Does knowing his backstory add anything?

I'll pass this one to Mr. Kramer. I don't know much about the original Sonny Sumo apart from him being in Forever People.

So, why exactly is Shilo putting together a team? Does he think he can win the cosmic war that was already lost? Why is he recruiting Sonny Sumo? Heck, how did he even know where Sonny would be?

He's putting together a team to fight against Darkseid. He knows he's on Earth after the events of Seven Soldiers. Motherboxxx led Shilo to Sonny Sumo, which makes sense as he's the descendant or reincarnation of the original Sonny Sumo.

Why is "Thesaurus Lad" sketching Overman, Overgirl, Captain Adam and the evil Monitor? It is already established that he remembers "dreaming" his existance as a Monitor.

To make it seem that the Superman Beyond/Mandrak storyline isn't completely random?

How and why did Turpin get out of the Dark Side Club? It seems a bit odd for him to be going on like the meeting with Boss Dark Side never happened.

The way I see it, Darkseid transferred his essence from the body he was using into Turpin and Turpin has a little amnesia.

Given how often JLA members have helped out the Guardians in the past (altough that may be out of continuity on New Earth), I would think that this local crime fighting club would be a lot more respected by the Guardians and an Alpha Lantern.

I figured Granny Goodness had already possessed her and she was just jerking the JLA around.

In the scene where Hal is arrested, his Lantern is clearly visible. Doesn't he usually keep that thing invisible in order to keep it safe? Just seemed a bit odd.

I didn't even think about that, but you're right. Even back in the Silver Age he made it invisible to keep anyone from finding it. The only explanation I can think of is that the Alpha Lanterns were going to take the lantern in along with his ring and badge and made it visible. Or J.G. Jones could have just drawn the lantern by accident.

Superman taking off to protect his secret identity seemed a bit forced. Doesn't he have robots for times like this? And is it just me or does the "S" on Superman's chest seem to havea must thicker outline than usual?

The "S" does look thicker and seeing how it's Morrison, I'm surprised he didn't use Superman robots.

I'm still a bit unclear how Granny was able to take over an Alpha Lantern.

It does seem like quite a feat. I remember the first time I read it thinking, "An Alpha Lantern's been possessed by one of Darkseid's agents? Earth is doomed."

What is Kamandi doing at Command D? How did he get there?

I thought it was the Kamandi from Countdown, but then I remembered that Kamandi is on Earth 51. So I have no idea.

Kamandi can't be the last boy on Earth not under the sway of the Anti-Life equation since at this point it hasn't been unleashed yet. And, even after that, apparently some poeople are naturally immune to it so it stands to reason that at least one of those people would be a boy. Tattooed Man's son in Final Crisis: Submit is one such example.

I think Juan meant after the virus was released, but you make a good point.

The thing that kep Superman's secret identity safe was the bomb that just went off, nearly killing everyone there. (I'd love to see a similar scene someday in a comic revealing most of the people in the office to be super-heroes.) Given how fast Superman can be, I'm surprised he wasn't able to react fast enough to do anything.

Ah, but how does he explain Clark Kent not having a scratch on himself when he's by Lois' bedside in #3?

Final Crisis: Superman Beyond is essential reading for Final Crisis.

Without question. I'm glad that DC decided to add it to the Final Crisis HC.

I was wondering if you guys would catch the fact that the Flashes didn't actually meet at the community center but at Jay's home. Post-Crisis on Infinite Earths, Grant Morrison established that for a while (10 years? 30 years) Keystone City was frozen in time and that Barry synced up with it in a story that mirrored the classic first meeting of the characters. (See here.) Presumably in that story (Secret Origins #50), Bary and Jay first met at the community center. Of course since Jay was stuck in Keystone City an the community center is in Central City, I'm not sure how that would work. Seems like Grant Morrison ought to reread his own stories before referencing them...

Thanks for the info. I knew the pre-Crisis meeting, but had no idea how they met post-Crisis. I'll have to track down that Secret Origins issue.

Why would there be a seismic pulse when Martian Manhunter was killed? There was no indication of that in the first issue. And last issue, the JLA didn't seem to know much about the New Gods, now Wally recognizes the new Mobius Chair? And when did Batman have time to tell Wally his theory about the bullet fired backwards in time? How and why is the chair the scope for the gun? That doesn't make any sense to me. Of course, I'm still confused about when/where/how Metron lost the Mobius Chair in the first place.

I took the New Gods history lesson as one for the B list heroes on the JLA and not necessarily the A listers. I found the Batman explanation hilarious as it sounded like pure exposition. I wish we got something about the Mobius chair too.

And, yeah, I expect that Final Crisis: Superman Beyond will take a bit of time to explain. A ton of stuff happens in those issues. Are you going to do both issues at once or one episode per issue?

The plan is to cover them both in one episode, same for Submit/#4 and the two Batman issues.

[JohnMayo]

So, why exactly is Shilo putting together a team? Does he think he can win the cosmic war that was already lost? Why is he recruiting Sonny Sumo? Heck, how did he even know where Sonny would be?

He's putting together a team to fight against Darkseid. He knows he's on Earth after the events of Seven Soldiers. Motherboxxx led Shilo to Sonny Sumo, which makes sense as he's the descendant or reincarnation of the original Sonny Sumo.

I thought Final Crsis #7 established that this Sonny Sumo is the Earth-51 Sonny Sumo and that the "original one" went back in time or something like that. Of course, that begs the question as to how this Sonny Sumo knows what happened to the "original one"...

Why is "Thesaurus Lad" sketching Overman, Overgirl, Captain Adam and the evil Monitor? It is already established that he remembers "dreaming" his existance as a Monitor.

To make it seem that the Superman Beyond/Mandrak storyline isn't completely random?

Fair enough.

How and why did Turpin get out of the Dark Side Club? It seems a bit odd for him to be going on like the meeting with Boss Dark Side never happened.

The way I see it, Darkseid transferred his essence from the body he was using into Turpin and Turpin has a little amnesia.

I'll buy the amnesia but why was he allowed to leave the Dark Side Club? Wouldn't Boss Dark Side's people want to keep an eye on him during his transition period? After all, that seems like when he is most vulnerable to attack and therefore should be kept safe.

Given how often JLA members have helped out the Guardians in the past (altough that may be out of continuity on New Earth), I would think that this local crime fighting club would be a lot more respected by the Guardians and an Alpha Lantern.

I figured Granny Goodness had already possessed her and she was just jerking the JLA around.

That makes sense.

In the scene where Hal is arrested, his Lantern is clearly visible. Doesn't he usually keep that thing invisible in order to keep it safe? Just seemed a bit odd.

I didn't even think about that, but you're right. Even back in the Silver Age he made it invisible to keep anyone from finding it. The only explanation I can think of is that the Alpha Lanterns were going to take the lantern in along with his ring and badge and made it visible. Or J.G. Jones could have just drawn the lantern by accident.

I suspect that JG Jones simply drew it by accident. But, ideally, the editor should have caught that and had it fixed.

Superman taking off to protect his secret identity seemed a bit forced. Doesn't he have robots for times like this? And is it just me or does the "S" on Superman's chest seem to have a much thicker outline than usual?

The "S" does look thicker and seeing how it's Morrison, I'm surprised he didn't use Superman robots.

The funny thing is that using the Superman robots wouldn't have really changed the set up to Final Crisis: Superman Beyond. A case could be made that Superman would be feeling so guilty about not being there for Lois that he'd be even more willing to help out the Monitor in order to save Lois.

I'm still a bit unclear how Granny was able to take over an Alpha Lantern.

It does seem like quite a feat. I remember the first time I read it thinking, "An Alpha Lantern's been possessed by one of Darkseid's agents? Earth is doomed."

My first thought was "How?" followed by "When?"

What is Kamandi doing at Command D? How did he get there?

I thought it was the Kamandi from Countdown, but then I remembered that Kamandi is on Earth 51. So I have no idea.

Last we saw Kamandi, he was yelling at Anthro in Final Crisis #1. That scene at the end of Final Crisis #1 still doesn't really work for me.

Kamandi can't be the last boy on Earth not under the sway of the Anti-Life equation since at this point it hasn't been unleashed yet. And, even after that, apparently some people are naturally immune to it so it stands to reason that at least one of those people would be a boy. Tattooed Man's son in Final Crisis: Submit is one such example.

I think Juan meant after the virus was released, but you make a good point.

The thing that kept Superman's secret identity safe was the bomb that just went off, nearly killing everyone there. (I'd love to see a similar scene someday in a comic revealing most of the people in the office to be super-heroes.) Given how fast Superman can be, I'm surprised he wasn't able to react fast enough to do anything.

Ah, but how does he explain Clark Kent not having a scratch on himself when he's by Lois' bedside in #3?

The only people that knew Clark was there were in as bad a shape as Lois. Presumably Superman took Lois to the hospital. He could then fly out and immediately return as Clark claiming that he came to the hospital as soon as he heard about the bombing. All of that could have been done in two panels or so and could have even been done in flashback in Final Crisis #3 or Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #1. It could have been a cool Silver Age-ish moment. But, instead, it is left to the readers imagination since Morrison glossed over that part of the story.

Final Crisis: Superman Beyond is essential reading for Final Crisis.

Without question. I'm glad that DC decided to add it to the Final Crisis HC.

Agreed.

I was wondering if you guys would catch the fact that the Flashes didn't actually meet at the community center but at Jay's home. Post-Crisis on Infinite Earths, Grant Morrison established that for a while (10 years? 30 years) Keystone City was frozen in time and that Barry synced up with it in a story that mirrored the classic first meeting of the characters. (See here.) Presumably in that story (Secret Origins #50), Bary and Jay first met at the community center. Of course since Jay was stuck in Keystone City an the community center is in Central City, I'm not sure how that would work. Seems like Grant Morrison ought to reread his own stories before referencing them...

Thanks for the info. I knew the pre-Crisis meeting, but had no idea how they met post-Crisis. I'll have to track down that Secret Origins issue.

I've got the issue but I haven't bothered to dig it out and reread it.

Why would there be a seismic pulse when Martian Manhunter was killed? There was no indication of that in the first issue. And last issue, the JLA didn't seem to know much about the New Gods, now Wally recognizes the new Mobius Chair? And when did Batman have time to tell Wally his theory about the bullet fired backwards in time? How and why is the chair the scope for the gun? That doesn't make any sense to me. Of course, I'm still confused about when/where/how Metron lost the Mobius Chair in the first place.

I took the New Gods history lesson as one for the B list heroes on the JLA and not necessarily the A listers. I found the Batman explanation hilarious as it sounded like pure exposition. I wish we got something about the Mobius chair too.

I'd lean towards Wally being one of the JLAers that may never have met any of the New Gods. I don't recall if Wally was in the JLA when Orion and Lightray were members or not.

The raw exposition in that scene was part of what made it feel tacked on to the issue and not part of the issue. Think how much better the story might have been if we'd at least seen Batman ask Wally to do a "little research" for him in the earlier scene. You know, something to set up this bit of exposition.

And, yeah, I expect that Final Crisis: Superman Beyond will take a bit of time to explain. A ton of stuff happens in those issues. Are you going to do both issues at once or one episode per issue?

The plan is to cover them both in one episode, same for Submit/#4 and the two Batman issues.

I'm really looking forward to hearing what you two have to say about the Superman Beyond issues. Those were way too metatextual for my tastes.

[BuffDaddyBill]

I just want to thank you guys for doing these Final Crisis podcasts. As confusing as Final Crisis is, these podcasts have helped me understand a lot things that I either overlooked or just plain didn't get. Final Crisis has gone from a convuluted mess to a more enjoyable experience for me. Keep up the good work and I can't wait for next podcast.

[Koete]

Thanks a lot, that's probably the best feedback we could receive. I fell behind on editing Final Crisis 3, but I'm almost done and should get it to John later today.