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Yes...a topic beat to death at times, but I got a bit fired up when hitting the local comic shop today.

I picked up my stack and then walked around to snag a couple additional issues. Prior to checking out, I like to go through and add up the comics (just to make sure I'm within my cash limits for the week). When going through the stack I came across Marvel Zombies 3 #2, which I noticed had a cover price of $3.99. Taken aback, I figured, "it must have extra pages." So, I flipped through and low and behold...22 pages. This ticked me off. I asked the shop employee why the increased price and he shrugged his shoulders and said Marvel did it not only with this issue, but another (and the other I was told was only 16 pages of new content).

This angered me that I took the issue, put it back on the shelf and said that Marvel can keep it. I then came home and sent a comment at Marvel.com about my irritation with the price hike on that issue/series.

This incident also made me realize for the first time that $3.99 for a mainstream marvel or DC book is past my breaking point. Particularly when (and I agree with Bob on this) I will most likely find these issues in the $1 bin a year or two from now. Now, independent books I will support at the higher cost...but I feel you get more out of them (extended letter page, artwork, etc...).

Ultimately I feel bad for the local comic shop who will get less income from me and possibly others. Eventually it won't be worth it for owners to maintain a store and then...further comic book store closings.

Any thoughts on this?

If not...thanks for letting me vent.

Marvel eventual defense is that the economy is demands they raise the cost to keep paying for the printing cost and running the publishing company. But the truth of it is they are burden by exclusive contracts and they are struggling in justifying their earnings to the shareholders as comics don't make as much money as the toys, licensing products and movies make.

I'm glad you brought this up. I was going to mention the whole price hike issue on the latest Weekly Comics Spotlight but we were running long so I decided not to.

Obviously we all want lower prices. But, with sales dropping, publishers need to do something to offset that. Clearly upping the prices from $2.99 to $3.99 will increase the money coming in on a per copy basis. Part of why they usually bump up the price as much as they do if to account for the people that will drop books at the higher price.

The question I was thinking about asking on the Weekly Comic Spotlight was "what can publishers do to help justify a higher price?" with the caveat that they are doing so to make more money. So, any answer that involves spending more money resulting in the publisher not making more money isn't a viable answer.

I mean, I'm not crazy about Big Hero 6 being a $3.99 book with the standard number of story pages plus a reprint of a story I've already got and a few OHotMU page (which I also already have) tossed in. I'd rather pay $2.99 for just the story pages. But, clearly the people at Marvel did the math and based on how they projected the title would sell they made the decision to bump up the price and toss in a bunch of reprint pages. While they had to pay a little extra for those pages to be printed, there was no creation costs for those pages (or at least no *new* creative costs since they already paid for those pages when they first saw print) and minimal production costs involved in assembling those pages into the issue.

While I don't like paying the $3.99 price, I respect the fact that Marvel is at least trying to give us a little something extra for the extra dollar. It is better than just upping the price for the standard number of story pages and nothing else.

So, instead of just complaining about the higher prices (which is totally understandable to do), why don't we put our collective mind power to work at figuring out what the publishers might be able to do to make the increased prices more acceptable to us. Because if we can do that, maybe that will prevent as many readers from bailing on those titles with the increased prices and put off the next price increase after this upcoming one a bit longer.

johnmayo wrote: So, instead of just complaining about the higher prices (which is totally understandable to do), why don't we put our collective mind power to work at figuring out what the publishers might be able to do to make the increased prices more acceptable to us. Because if we can do that, maybe that will prevent as many readers from bailing on those titles with the increased prices and put off the next price increase after this upcoming one a bit longer.

C'mon, I just want to complain

For me, the only thing that will make a higher price acceptable is a corresponding increase in new content.

1) Putting a normal 22-page book on shiny high-quality paper is not something that makes me happy about paying the higher price. Marvel tends to do this with a lot of their minis (like the current Sub-Mariner: Depths, and recent Silver Surfer series)

2) Throwing in a reprint story (which I probably already have) or some OHOTMU pages is not something that justifies a price hike for me. This may appeal to a different demographic, though, so I will not dismiss this as a sales technique. People that have never been exposed to classic Marvel stuff can quite probably get a LOT of value out of having some really cool reprint material for an extra buck. Doubling an issue size and raising the price by a buck may be a good solution. This would lose me as a customer for the book, but if it gains them other readers, that could be a very good trade-off.

3) Add extra "all new" content in the form of back-up stories by new up-and-coming creators who are not high-priced and will not significantly raise the cost of producing the issue. Add an extra 8-10 pages of new story in a back-up and raise the price by a buck. 30-32 pages of story for $3.99 is a lot easier to swallow than 22 pages for $3.99.

Flash77 wrote:When going through the stack I came across Marvel Zombies 3 #2, which I noticed had a cover price of $3.99. Taken aback, I figured, "it must have extra pages." So, I flipped through and low and behold...22 pages. This ticked me off.

I have noticed that Marvel seems to be raising the base price on a lot of their minis that are "normal" comic length (Adam: Legend of the Blue Marvel, Big Hero 6, GR: Danny Ketch, Marvel Zombies, Marvels: Eye of the Camera, Punisher: War Zone, Sub-Mariner: The Depths, X-Men: Kingbreaker, X-Infernus, X-Men: Worlds Apart, X-Men/Spider-Man, X-Men: Magneto Testament, X-Men: Manifest Destiny), as well as their normal-length MAX titles (Punisher, Dead of Night)

Probably doing this to test the waters and pave the way for an across-the-board price hike.

JLAFan wrote:

johnmayo wrote: So, instead of just complaining about the higher prices (which is totally understandable to do), why don't we put our collective mind power to work at figuring out what the publishers might be able to do to make the increased prices more acceptable to us. Because if we can do that, maybe that will prevent as many readers from bailing on those titles with the increased prices and put off the next price increase after this upcoming one a bit longer.

C'mon, I just want to complain

For me, the only thing that will make a higher price acceptable is a corresponding increase in new content.

1) Putting a normal 22-page book on shiny high-quality paper is not something that makes me happy about paying the higher price. Marvel tends to do this with a lot of their minis (like the current Sub-Mariner: Depths, and recent Silver Surfer series)

2) Throwing in a reprint story (which I probably already have) or some OHOTMU pages is not something that justifies a price hike for me. This may appeal to a different demographic, though, so I will not dismiss this as a sales technique. People that have never been exposed to classic Marvel stuff can quite probably get a LOT of value out of having some really cool reprint material for an extra buck. Doubling an issue size and raising the price by a buck may be a good solution. This would lose me as a customer for the book, but if it gains them other readers, that could be a very good trade-off.

3) Add extra "all new" content in the form of back-up stories by new up-and-coming creators who are not high-priced and will not significantly raise the cost of producing the issue. Add an extra 8-10 pages of new story in a back-up and raise the price by a buck. 30-32 pages of story for $3.99 is a lot easier to swallow than 22 pages for $3.99.

I see where you are coming from on all of this. I'm not happy about higher prices either. But, if sales don't start leveling off or going up then a price hike is inevitable. I think we are better off trying to help the publishers try to find away to increase the "bang" as when they have to increase the "buck" so to speak.

As far as your suggestions so...

1) I agree that high quality paper is not going to get or keep readers. If anything, going for cheaper paper seem like a better idea but my understanding it that the difference in the cost of the various paper qualities isn't enough to make a huge difference. So downgrading the paper isn't likely to save enough money to justify it.

2) I'm in the same boat as you in term of having a lot of the reprint material that they are tossing into the high prices comics these days. It does nothing for me. But at least they are making an effort here and one that doesn't cost them much. I don't like this but I find it better than just increasing the cost and not adding anything.

3) Obviously getting more new content for the increased price would be ideal. But this involves increasing the content creation costs. The reason the prices are increasing to begin with it to help cover the content creation costs. So increasing those costs would be counter productive.

Even fresh off the street creators need to get paid and there is a minimal cost associated with each story page for the writing, pencils, inks, colors, lettering and editing. If they can do this cost effectively then I agree that it is the best move.

That having been said, the increase in price will cut into sales to begin with and between that and increasing the content creation costs this seems to be a breakeven deal at best. As such, it is unlikely to happen and offers to advantages over the current situation which isn't working for the publisher.

Skyhawke wrote:Marvel eventual defense is that the economy is demands they raise the cost to keep paying for the printing cost and running the publishing company. But the truth of it is they are burden by exclusive contracts and they are struggling in justifying their earnings to the shareholders as comics don't make as much money as the toys, licensing products and movies make.

Well, increasing sales would go a long way towards helping things. But that isn't going to magically happen over night (if ever)...

Your point about the increased costs of exclusive contracts is a good one. Hopefully Marvel and DC are looking at ways to streamline their companies and run more efficiently. Both in terms of creative costs and in terms of other business overhead costs.

johnmayo wrote: 3) Obviously getting more new content for the increased price would be ideal. But this involves increasing the content creation costs. The reason the prices are increasing to begin with it to help cover the content creation costs. So increasing those costs would be counter productive.
Even fresh off the street creators need to get paid and there is a minimal cost associated with each story page for the writing, pencils, inks, colors, lettering and editing. If they can do this cost effectively then I agree that it is the best move.

I realize that there is cost associated with fresh off the street people, but Joe & Moe Blow are going to be (I assume) substantially cheaper than Bendis & Yu. So, what they pay the "Big Guys" for 22 pages is likely to be 10x what they would need to pay "newbies" for 8 pages of content (#s totally pulled out of thin air, but should be in the ballpark of correct, based on the fact that I'm talking about less material produced by the newbies, in addition to their lower page rates and the fact that they do not likely have exclusive contract perks/benefits).

So you increase the cost by 10% to get 36% additional content and you get 33% more revenue, this may not be a totally skewed trade-off.

JLAFan wrote:

johnmayo wrote: 3) Obviously getting more new content for the increased price would be ideal. But this involves increasing the content creation costs. The reason the prices are increasing to begin with it to help cover the content creation costs. So increasing those costs would be counter productive.
Even fresh off the street creators need to get paid and there is a minimal cost associated with each story page for the writing, pencils, inks, colors, lettering and editing. If they can do this cost effectively then I agree that it is the best move.

I realize that there is cost associated with fresh off the street people, but Joe & Moe Blow are going to be (I assume) substantially cheaper than Bendis & Yu. So, what they pay the "Big Guys" for 22 pages is likely to be 10x what they would need to pay "newbies" for 8 pages of content (3s totally pulled out of thin air, but should be in the ballpark of correct), so you increase the cost by 10% to get 36% additional content and you get 33% more revenue, this may not be a totally skewed trade-off.

The irony is that the books that would benefit from these additional pages are often the lower selling ones by (presumably) less expensive creative teams. I'm also not sure how wide the gap is between the minimum page rates and the top end page rates. I suspect that the increase in cost would be well above 10%.

I suspect that even if this approach was cost effective that many readers would still be unhappy with the increased cost and see it as having to buy additional pages by no-name creators.

Also, you claim of 33% more revenue is based on no loss in sales. Regardless of any perks that may or may not get added, some readers will drop titles with a price hike simply because they either can't afford the higher price or can't justify it even with the added bonuses. Add to that the usual issue over issue decline and the sales are virtually guaranteed to be down. So a net gain in revenue while possible is not a certainty.

Great discussion here guys. If Marvel is going to raise the price to $3.99, I think they should at least split the difference with us. How about if they provide 28 pages of story instead of the usual 22? Shouldn’t the added retail cost also give us some added entertainment value too? Also, what happened to going to 3.50, before 3.99?

I don’t understand why some of the independent publishers charge 2.99 and others 3.99. Why does my City of Dust (Radical) retail at 2.99, but my Star Trek Last Generation (IDW) is 3.99? If it’s just because of an added licensing cost, than why does my Star Wars Legacy (Dark Horse) cost 2.99?

Once the prices go up I’ll simply be cutting back on my amount of titles to meet my monthly dollar budget. From what I read on your thread “Comic Budgets vs. Comic Readership,” I won’t be the only one. A lot of people have monthly budgets based on dollars. It’s too bad if we as readers would be getting a lot less entertainment for our dollar.

How much entertainment do we get out of our comics anyways? I know I usually read though each comic twice in about 15 to 20 minutes. I like to read through once quickly without stopping and then again slowly to really admire the art. I know, everyone reads comics differently. I won't get into how that amount of time compares with DVD's or novels. It would be nice if by adding a few more pages to each title the publishers could make up for some of that added price.

IanG wrote:Great discussion here guys. If Marvel is going to raise the price to $3.99, I think they should at least split the difference with us. How about if they provide 28 pages of story instead of the usual 22? Shouldn’t the added retail cost also give us some added entertainment value too? Also, what happened to going to 3.50, before 3.99?[/quote

well..at 2.99 for 22 pages, we're paying 13.6 cents per page. If they made it 3.99 for 28 pages, it'd be 14.3 cents per page, representing a 5% hike. Which, actually, doesn't sound too low. But if they can get 33%.... I agree though, what did happen to the $3.50 price point? Or even the $3.25 one (which would still be an 8.3% hike!)?

I don’t understand why some of the independent publishers charge 2.99 and others 3.99. Why does my City of Dust (Radical) retail at 2.99, but my Star Trek Last Generation (IDW) is 3.99? If it’s just because of an added licensing cost, than why does my Star Wars Legacy (Dark Horse) cost 2.99?

Once the prices go up I’ll simply be cutting back on my amount of titles to meet my monthly dollar budget. From what I read on your thread “Comic Budgets vs. Comic Readership,” I won’t be the only one. A lot of people have monthly budgets based on dollars. It’s too bad if we as readers would be getting a lot less entertainment for our dollar.

How much entertainment do we get out of our comics anyways? I know I usually read though each comic twice in about 15 to 20 minutes. I like to read through once quickly without stopping and then again slowly to really admire the art. I know, everyone reads comics differently. I won't get into how that amount of time compares with DVD's or novels. It would be nice if by adding a few more pages to each title the publishers could make up for some of that added price.

Well...even though it's only 20 minutes (ro less) of reading, you need to include the comics discussion as part of your entertainment. That's a big part of the experience for me. Also, comics have a certain resale value - i.e. if you pay $12 to go to the movies, it's gone. You buy 4 comics (or 3, now), you can (somtimes) get back some of that by reselling it.

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IanG wrote: Great discussion here guys. If Marvel is going to raise the price to $3.99, I think they should at least split the difference with us. How about if they provide 28 pages of story instead of the usual 22? Shouldn’t the added retail cost also give us some added entertainment value too? Also, what happened to going to 3.50, before 3.99?

Splitting the difference seems fairer to us them to the publisher. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the idea on the basis of paying less. I also completely agree that if we have to pay more that we really ought to be getting more.

But, when the average sales for the top 300 are around 22,000 to 23,000 and the median sales for the top 300 are down around 13,000 to 14,000 we have to be realistic and understand that the costs of creation are a much bigger piece of the pie then back when comics generally sold hundred of thousands of copies. Creation costs of $10,000 over 100,000 paid copies works out to 10 cents a copy. But creation costs of $10000 over 20,000 paid copies works out to 50 cents a copy. And those creation costs are just examples. Some comics cost more to produce, some less.

You also have to factor in the at the publisher only sees about 40% of the cover price with the rest split between the retailer and distributor.

If sales of 15,000 or so aren't enough to keep a $2.99 title afloat then what can and should Marvel do to fix that. I picked 15,000 because the latest issue of Amazing Spider-Girl that I have estimated sales figures for (#24) sold just under that in September. The title is getting canceled so due to "low sales" so we can use that as a benchmark for the purposes of this discussion.

The obvious solution is to boost sales. But, for the sake of discussion we'll ignore that if for no other reason than nobody seem to know how to make it happen on demand.

Another option is to raise the price so that the title makes more money. But doing so will cut into sales. That means that the price hike needs to both make the current unprofitable sales become profitable and account for the expected drop in sales due to the higher price. This is why prices are more likely to jump for $2.99 to $3.99 and skip the $3.50 price point.

Your suggestion of adding more pages has some merit but those additional six pages of story need to be written, drawn, inked, colored, letters and edited. All of which costs money. This means that the price point need to not only compensate for the current unprofitable sales of the title, the expected sales drop from the new price but also factor in the printing and creative cost of those additional page. It also requires the publisher to make an increased investment in an unprofitable title with no guarantee of any return on that increased investment.

Why would a publisher do that?

And I ask that not as a devil's advocate but in the hope that we can come up with a viable and compelling business case which a publisher would buy into. Because if we can do that then maybe we'll actually get those extra new story pages.

IanG wrote: I don’t understand why some of the independent publishers charge 2.99 and others 3.99. Why does my City of Dust (Radical) retail at 2.99, but my Star Trek Last Generation (IDW) is 3.99? If it’s just because of an added licensing cost, than why does my Star Wars Legacy (Dark Horse) cost 2.99?

There are a ton of factors involved. With Radical it is possible that they are expecting to make the "real money" off City of Dust from a future movie or some other secondary revenue stream. With the Star Wars and Star Trek titles, there is the licensing fees which could be very different from each other and the expected sales levels for the titles. Dark Horse has a much stronger track record for selling comics than IDW. Star Wars is also a very active property with recent movies and a current cartoon that are keeping it alive in the minds of the audience. Star Trek has been between the last less than successful television show and the upcoming movie resulting in a potentially less marketable property.

IanG wrote: Once the prices go up I’ll simply be cutting back on my amount of titles to meet my monthly dollar budget. From what I read on your thread “Comic Budgets vs. Comic Readership,” I won’t be the only one. A lot of people have monthly budgets based on dollars. It’s too bad if we as readers would be getting a lot less entertainment for our dollar.

This is why the $3.50 price point is very unlikely. Comics are starting to price themselves beyond the pain threshold for most current readers. This is why I think that we as readers need to see if we can help the publishers figure out a way to fix the business model and reduce the need and impact of price increases.

IanG wrote: How much entertainment do we get out of our comics anyways? I know I usually read though each comic twice in about 15 to 20 minutes. I like to read through once quickly without stopping and then again slowly to really admire the art. I know, everyone reads comics differently. I won't get into how that amount of time compares with DVD's or novels. It would be nice if by adding a few more pages to each title the publishers could make up for some of that added price.

This is a great point. Personally, I think that the writing for the trade mindset is part of why current comics seem to be a lighter in terms of story content than older comics. If we felt like we were getting more for our money, then maybe we'd be more likely to stick with titles and sales might stabilize or even go up over time.

johnmayo wrote:So, instead of just complaining about the higher prices (which is totally understandable to do), why don't we put our collective mind power to work at figuring out what the publishers might be able to do to make the increased prices more acceptable to us. Because if we can do that, maybe that will prevent as many readers from bailing on those titles with the increased prices and put off the next price increase after this upcoming one a bit longer.

We know that the big two publishers probably aren't going to lower their net profit on a higher priced book. Do we think that adding additional pages substantially increased the sales of a book? Probably not. Thus what's the short-term incentive for the publisher.

While it might be unpopular and lessen the chance of a new reader picking up a book for the first time, I'd might be open to paying a bit more for the start of a new story arc or creative team. The story stays the regular 22 pages, but we receive supplemental material that provides "behind the scenes" information about the storyline prior. And not just a retread of interviews from Wizard or the internet, but to try and understand what the creative or publisher was trying to accomplish with the story, where it was a success and where it wasn't.

Presuming that the first issue of a story arc or new creative sells better than the issues that follow, the price hike would satisfy Marvel or DC desire to increase their profits, without having to do that for every issue.

JLAFan wrote:

Flash77 wrote:When going through the stack I came across Marvel Zombies 3 #2, which I noticed had a cover price of $3.99. Taken aback, I figured, "it must have extra pages." So, I flipped through and low and behold...22 pages. This ticked me off.

I have noticed that Marvel seems to be raising the base price on a lot of their minis that are "normal" comic length (Adam: Legend of the Blue Marvel, Big Hero 6, GR: Danny Ketch, Marvel Zombies, Marvels: Eye of the Camera, Punisher: War Zone, Sub-Mariner: The Depths, X-Men: Kingbreaker, X-Infernus, X-Men: Worlds Apart, X-Men/Spider-Man, X-Men: Magneto Testament, X-Men: Manifest Destiny), as well as their normal-length MAX titles (Punisher, Dead of Night)

Probably doing this to test the waters and pave the way for an across-the-board price hike.

If this is the case...do you think it's a fair comparison?

This wasn't the case with me, but I could see some buyers take the mindset of, "Well, it is $3.99, but it's only a four issue mini series." But when faced with an increase on regular titles, justifying $3.99 an issue becomes a bit more difficult.

Flash77 wrote:

johnmayo wrote:So, instead of just complaining about the higher prices (which is totally understandable to do), why don't we put our collective mind power to work at figuring out what the publishers might be able to do to make the increased prices more acceptable to us. Because if we can do that, maybe that will prevent as many readers from bailing on those titles with the increased prices and put off the next price increase after this upcoming one a bit longer.

We know that the big two publishers probably aren't going to lower their net profit on a higher priced book. Do we think that adding additional pages substantially increased the sales of a book? Probably not. Thus what's the short-term incentive for the publisher.

While it might be unpopular and lessen the chance of a new reader picking up a book for the first time, I'd might be open to paying a bit more for the start of a new story arc or creative team. The story stays the regular 22 pages, but we receive supplemental material that provides "behind the scenes" information about the storyline prior. And not just a retread of interviews from Wizard or the internet, but to try and understand what the creative or publisher was trying to accomplish with the story, where it was a success and where it wasn't.

Presuming that the first issue of a story arc or new creative sells better than the issues that follow, the price hike would satisfy Marvel or DC desire to increase their profits, without having to do that for every issue.

This is the sort of out of the box thinking I was waiting for. This is an interesting way to try and leverage the added interest in the first issue of a story arc.

I particularly like the idea of including a "what you need to know" recap of previous stories which would make the issue all the most accessible.

But, isn't it equally possible upping the price on the first issue of a stroy arc might result in reduce sales on both the first part of the new story arc and therefore the story arc as a whole?

And, wouldn't it be better to somehow encourage the idea that readers can and should jump on at any issue versus reinforcing the notion of periodic jump on issues and the implication that all of the other issues are bad jumping on points?

I'm wondering if there would be a way to make the first issue of a new story arc a little cheaper and include the "what has gone before" piece and find a way for the other issues in the story to recoup the cost. This would encourage readers to try out new story arcs and get publishers thinking a bit more in terms of reader retention.

Long term, the publishers need to do a better job of marketing and selling the comics. Part of that requires that the creators do a better job of hooking the readers and retaining them from issue to issue.

In the short term, your idea of leveraging the increased interest in the first issue of story arcs is a great suggestion.