VikingJoker (Marvin)
3:57 PM
Thanks
@perseus
. I love the Epic format. Excited about this initiative at DC and will support it. Looking for additional details online and think the initial Superman offering is intriguing:
What better place to start then with the hero who started it all: Superman! This collection features the Man of Steel’s earliest stories, starting with 1938’s legendary Action Comics #1 from Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster.
DC Finest: Superman: The Coming of Superman collects the first two years of Superman adventures in Action Comics #1-25, Superman #1-5, and New York World's Fair #1.
john.mayo
4:09 PM
I thought everything Brevoort was talking about was directly related to the sliding timeline. a character acting differently in a team book versus a solo title (or really, in any two or more titles) has nothing to do with the sliding timeline and everything to do with continuity. The sad state of current comics is that most writers and probably too many editors aren't familiar with that backstory and nature of the characters they deal with. worse, many don't seem to care and think "telling a good story" allows them to disregard the history of the character.
Continuity is about Peter Parker being bitten by the radioactive spider and getting powers for it. It isn't about the date on which that happened. (Generally speaking, there are some cases in which the date or timeframe plays a key part in the narrative such as characters born out of the events of World War II) (edited)
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XManPatrick
6:08 PM
I wasn't around for the first ultimate series but this series now is a breath of fresh air. I have dropped most of the marvel continuity and completely dropped all of DC because of writing. I have stuck with Spider-Man because the last run stunk so bad that this one isn't as bad. Almost all of the events are poo. I have enjoyed the venom one and blood Hunt so far.
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James (jrphoenix)
8:37 PM
Continuity is great and the worst gate keeping invention ever. Long time readers are overjoyed and versed in the lore. The casual reader stays the hell away as they’re overwhelmed and don’t have the time to invest. No writers today, other than a few I can count on one hand, give a damn about the plight of the unversed casual reader. The worst part is a large chunk of writers coming in just write and aren’t going to do the years of reading to become versed.
john.mayo
10:30 PM
continuity does not have to mean inaccessible. an inaccessible story is just poor writing regardless of if past continuity is referenced or not
James (jrphoenix)
7:49 AM
True… writers or the worlds they’ve created aren’t that. I didn’t grow up with dc and it is still inaccessible at times after reading it for several years. We’ve created a cool kids club where others aren’t “welcome”. We say we want new readers but, not one writer writes that way. The books that tend to be our favorites are the least new reader friendly.
I think there is credence to what
@XManPatrick
wrote before. Hand off the titles from time to time to a creative team and enjoy the next few years, rinse and repeat. The new ultimate stories speak to many as we all enjoy them and feel welcome. After 3-5 years a new ultimate line or some type of story or we go back to the unwelcoming malaise we always end up in. Beginning, middle, end.. satisfaction vs the never ending.
john.mayo
8:21 AM
I'm reading Ultimate Spider-Man but not Ultimate Black Panther or Ultimate Spider-Man. I'm finding that Ultimate Spider-Man is leaning on the main 616 continuity quite a bit and that we are expected to realize how the Ultimate (2.0) versions are like and unlike the main 616 versions. I'm no sure if the title would work as well for someone completely unaware of the basics of the 616 (or movie) Spider-Man.
Don't confuse continuity and accessibility.
Continuity can be a very powerful thing beyond the scope of the title/narrative universe that spans it.
Accessibility, on the other hand, is something that most modern writers need to get better at
James (jrphoenix)
12:56 PM
I get what you're saying. I think if the Ultimate line is leaning on anything, it's casual people's knowledge of Spider-man from the movies. Most people have that basic knowledge. If some reader went in to any random issue of spiderman today, they would be expected (at times) to know about the clone saga from 30 years ago... who is this Ben Reilly guy? I thought his name was Peter? The same could be said for any random Batman story depending on when someone saw a Batman movie... I thought Robin was "Dick Grayson" or "Jason Todd".. oh wait he died 30 years ago. Who is the Damian guy? For the versed reader these concepts roll off the tongue and don't cause any confusion. This happened here or this happened there. Before you know it some casual reader will be pointed to reading decades worth of material so that it can make sense. It took each of us decades of reading to get to where we are.
We don't want that history, or continuity, scrapped because it brings up fond memories of stories we've read. We're nostalgic for that story and thought it was great when we first read it. It has to matter. That's perfectly valid and where I am most of the time. However, if we ever wanted to have a medium for the casual reader, that model doesn't work typically. If I'm a new reader and my first Robin I ever read was Damian... Some writer will write the book at a Dick or Todd will show up and cause so drama. Blanks won't be filled in, the reader is expected to know 40 years of history. In essence, it's not accessibility as much as continuity is the go to "crutch" because we can't expect a writer to explain the complexities of what has transpired over decades in 20 pages.
Not a critique here, just spit balling ideas and realizing why people get joy from new stories or short stories written well and less so with long term properties. Heck, this isn't a big 2 problem. Case in point, Spawn. Go try and pickup an issue of spawn if you were only there for the first 60 issues. You will be completely lost and never find yourself. I think there is something to be said for respecting continuity in a forward or foot note but, transitioning to a beginning, middle, end type of story telling in the future.
john.mayo
1:36 PM
The crux of the accessibility problem is that writer won't explain in the story enough of the needed backstory to understand the current story
1:37
blaming inaccessibility on continuity is akin to blaming smog on air and not on pollution
fudd71
1:42 PM
Continuity is required, it is literally the fabric that holds the world together, without literally nothing works or makes sense. My name is Sam, I have 4 siblings, a day is 24 hours, an hour is 60 minutes these are all continuity in the fact they grow on learned principles. If I woke up with a new name tomorrow, a different number (and different people) as siblings and the day was 35 hours and an hour was 12 minutes nothing would make sense. continuity literally is at the heart of existence and reality. If not we are living in a dream world.
Accessibility is about shared knowledge and experiences. Go back in comic history it was assumed the reader knew nothing and it was likely the comic they read was their first contact with the character or world, this led to the characters introducing themselves by name and their powers being listed and how they got them being explained (often on the Tittle Page) of virtually every issue. You got lots of talk about what had previously happened (if it was needed for the current story) and editor's notes.
Saying we don't think about or care about continuity means other than the name (and maybe appearance), nothing about the character is "real" they can quite literally have different powers, different supporting cast and different personalities with each story.
This is where the line with accessibility starts to blur, no writer I can think of really believes continuity doesn't matter. Seemingly modern writers think its more important then ever. But only in "their way", allow me to explain. Writers seem to think continuity and recall of continuity is perfect and vital for what they know/like and/or wrote but anything they didn't write or read or simply didn't like that continuity is unimportant. We see it all the time in modern times when writers want their "own take", "that's not the way I see the character", that happened 5, 10, 15 I don't know how many years ago and I didn't read it so I'm sure no one else did either? On the other hand I'm going to write a 20 issue run and the whole climax of the story will hang on a single throwaway line in the first issue that hasn't been mentioned or referenced since and I expect after all the delays and life when you read this issue 5 years later for you understand that point perfectly, that continuity they seem love.
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john.mayo
1:45 PM
@fudd71
great point about the big picture "macro continuity" and the "micro continuity" of the particular story
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john.mayo
1:51 PM
for a storyteller to claim continuity doesn't matter is a bit insane. it is essentially saying the events of a story don't matter. well, if the events of a story don't matter then why should we read them?
I'm fine with having to fudge details because of the sliding timeline which allows great characters created decades ago to still be in play today. And, some of those various stories will inevitably have dated aspects which would materially impact the plot and events of the story were the story to take place in more modern times. but those things can be subtly ignored without having to chuck the entire backstory and history of a character or to villainize continuity
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James (jrphoenix)
3:12 PM
I agree with you both.. continuity is what make the characters.. the characters we love. We love Peter, the troubled nerdy kid. He struggles with work, fitting in, and with the ramification of using or not using his powers. I think there is a core of what makes a character. Then there are things we all wish and editor / writer team wouldn't have done, maybe breaking the character. The core of the character continuity make sense, it's who the general casual moving goes / reader knows. Stories around that character are great.
We're getting to a point in continuity where there have been too many cooks in the kitchen at times. That doesn't mean those stories don't count or didn't matter. Continuity has left us with huge problems that seem difficult to fix, don't work for a new reader, and could be seemingly unrepairable for longtime readers.
Gaiman on Sandman, recreated the character essentially
We now have 2 captain Americas with refusal to resolve the issue. Do we still have the Mexican Falcon?
Things like this should have been a story and not force every future writer to be writing 2 captain americas. We have cap (sam) part of the Avengers and we have cap (steve) leading a new group of avengers in and event going on now. It's ludicrous.
I like that it all matters... and I love continuity but, we must admit we live in the ultimate boys club where new members need not apply without living up to our standards. It's just who we are. Chuck the new reader paradigm, they're never coming in this environment. (edited)
john.mayo
3:23 PM
is having two Captain Americas really a problem?
3:25
if it is confusing, isn't that a problem with the storytelling, not there being two Captain America
3:26
note, I'm not say having two Captain Americas is a good idea, just that is isn't inherently a problem
James (jrphoenix)
5:06 PM
It's a problem for people who are the "new reader", which may be non-existent to our medium. Why are there 2 captain americas, why hasn't one been promoted, wait I saw the movie and he was the falcoln. It's silly at best and a problem that they seem frozen to correct in any meaningful way. I think a writer made the move, with editorial approval. Now there is a fear of possible lash back if they take the new cap, an African American icon, and go back to the blonde hair blue eye cap. It's a move that wasn't thought through. We have fans of steve that will be upset if he's side lined. We have fans of Sam who don't want him demoted back to falcoln. Just one such example.
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5:07
BTW, fun discussion
@john.mayo
and
@fudd71
... you make the day pass quickly
chrismyers
5:20 PM
The various references to accessability for "new readers" really makes me question how many new readers there actually are anyway.
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john.mayo
5:25 PM
but is the lack of accessibility because there are few new readers or are there few new readers because of the lack of accessibility?
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James (jrphoenix)
5:39 PM
@chrismyers
none. I was the last new reader to dc and it still feels unfamiliar at times and requires research for me to make sense of things. We’ve killed the new reader
john.mayo
5:43 PM
while a strong case could be made that the new reader is dead, I don't think it was us (the other readers) that are to blame. I think that blame goes to the creators, editors and publishers for not making new reader friendly content
5:44
if the content was good enough, I would hope that a decade or two of Free Comic Book Day to get new readers to the stores would have paid off by now
James (jrphoenix)
5:58 PM
Yes, sorry I didn’t mean us the readers. I meant us the comic industry,, writers, editors, publishers short term monetization / thinking.
I would say, not to be so glum, there are new readers every year. Currently they read Indy titles and manga. The manga I sum up to curating a best of. The Indy stuff does well who read in trades and jump from title to title.
There are minuscule to non new big 2 readers. Up until, rebirth DC was new to me. I haven’t met anyone else?
fudd71
6:27 PM
I tend to agree that there are few new readers, but using continuity as a scape goat is not the answer either. The industry and creators wish that was the answer because it is easy and doesn't require any real change or work on their part. The first major problem with the logic is continuity existing doesn't matter or prevent storytelling unless you use it. It is fully in the hands of the writer. Remembering who Peter Parker's third cousin only mentioned once decades ago doesn't matter until the writer decides to make that character the villain for some reason and expects readers to care, while doing nothing to reintroduce or explain who that cousin was. That is a choice the writer made and saying that older appearance didn't happen won't fix that terrible choice and lack of concise storytelling or proper foreshadowing allowing the readers to know who that villain is. Much of that is on the writer, and the rest is editor that allowed it and then paid for it. Of course many people simply don't read anymore, the number of book bloggers and YouTubers that love to talk about all the books the audiobooks they have "read" is hilarious. Then there is the pricing, fractional story chunks, distribution, preorder model and specially shops all of which make finding and buying comics so easy. And then there is the hatred of half the readers they do have, hey if you didn't vote for the same person I did I hope you never buy my book and you should be executed that writers love scream on all their social media accounts. But I'm sure none of those things are why there are very few new readers, it is all continuities fault. (edited)
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VikingJoker (Marvin)
6:50 PM
My Marvel and DC titles keep diminishing. I'm not as excited about their product, but loving independent (not manga) - particularly Image. As the Krakoa era ends, I have no plans to pick up the next wave. When the current ASM ends, I'm out. That leaves Immortal Thor and Daredevil. At DC I'm down to 5 monthly titles. I have both digital subscriptions, so I'll read anything I want to on those platforms. It has less to do with continuity or accessibility, I'm bored with the stories and characters at the big two. I just read the entire run of Letter 44 from Oni and enjoyed it immensely. Love the expanded Spawn titles, Energon titles and TWDD, Something is Killing the Children, Geiger-verse and Conan titles. I'm buying plenty, but less and less of the big two.
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