Hibbs: The self-strangulation of the Direct Market

[BobBretall]

Until May 25: 85% off Marvel Hardcovers:
ITEM CODE DESCRIPTION SRP NET SALE PRICE
JUL082381 ANNIHILATION CLASSIC HC $29.99 $4.50
......


Obviously, if you get the hardcover for 85% off, you can sell it at 50% off and still make some money.

Interesting. I didn't realize Diamond offered stuff at such "Fire Sale" prices.

I can see now that a retailer can buy up a bunch of stuff (if he/she thinks it will sell) and bring it to a con to sell "on the cheap" and make money.

[Danscomics]

Until May 25: 85% off Marvel Hardcovers:
ITEM CODE DESCRIPTION SRP NET SALE PRICE
JUL082381 ANNIHILATION CLASSIC HC $29.99 $4.50
......


Obviously, if you get the hardcover for 85% off, you can sell it at 50% off and still make some money.

Interesting. I didn't realize Diamond offered stuff at such "Fire Sale" prices.

I can see now that a retailer can buy up a bunch of stuff (if he/she thinks it will sell) and bring it to a con to sell "on the cheap" and make money.

The first sale that John mentioned is a once a year sale by Diamond (their Summer Sizzler Sale). Diamond generally only has 2 sales themselves a year, the Summer Sizzler and the Blizzard of Bargains. The couple I have seen while I have been in business, the list of offerings doesn't really change. It's the same crap they couldn't sell at the last sale plus a few odd items that have sat in their distribution center for the last year or more. The few good things that do pop up are usually in such short supply that they are gone within an hour or less of the sale being announced (or never were available to begin with but were listed for some reason).

As for the Marvel sale, that is something that Marvel does do. I actually wish more of the publishers did that, but they seem to be the only one (with DC doing occasional back issue blow outs on titles no one wants even at .70 to $1 per issue). The Marvel sale isn't always 85%, it ranges from an additional 5% to 85%. And it isn't always books, or even such a long list of books.

As for damage returns for books and comics, Diamond doesn't usually take those back, we are supposed to destroy them. Sadly I know all too well about this process because I usually have at least 1 item every week that is either missing or damaged. It's interesting considering the number of times I have been in discussions about dealers needing to learn to pack comics correctly, and the giant of the industry can't even manage it.

Anyway, to summarize, Diamond generally doesn't offer huge discounts on things. Usually they are sales that the publisher are offering, and sadly they don't happen often with the exception of Marvel (who eventually had to get something right I guess).

[IanG]

Here are two examples of doorbusters Diamond is currently running:

From May 16 to June 6:

Obviously, if you get the hardcover for 85% off, you can sell it at 50% off and still make some money.

The irony here is that potentially nobody lost money. The retail isn't. The distributor isn't (since they never purchased these books from DC or Marvel since Diamond is a sales agent for them, not a distributor) and not the publisher. The publisher may have only printed these to get a price break on the printing or might want to liquidate them to save on storage or other such costs.

This explains why so many dealers at cons have the same discount trades. When is the "other shoe going to drop" and Marvel stops printing so many hardcovers?

[Tom]

I didn't mean to say he's incompetent. He's been in business a while and he doesn't seem to think any of the issues he brought up are going to put him out of business. I mean he needs to get better at selling comic books. Not like, "he needs to be a better businessman," but he needs to employ salesmanship. He seems to want to put the books on the shelf and let them do all the work. And for a long time, that was the comic book store business model. But now, you need to get in there and work your butt off and put books in peoples' hands. You need to know your customers and anticipate what they will want to buy.

And like I said, his criticisms of the DM are fair. In actuality, it's probably worse than what he said. I just don't see any reason for most of that to impact your business any more than, say, the weather, or anything else you can't control.

I agree that sometimes there are factors in business that you just can't control. I manage a religious bookstore, and there are so many things out there that impact my business that I just can't control. A good retailer will look at the things he/she can't control and try to come up with a way to either minimize the effect or do something else to counter the negative effect. Like you said, put more focus on upselling the books to a customer.

However I think in this case Hibbs is trying to do something about the problems of the DM by making people aware of it. If more people are aware of the problems, then maybe a solution can be found.

A lot of times you will here Dan Didio or Joe Quesada, or some one high up at DC or Marvel say "You vote with your $$" and they are talking to fans. But the number we see, and the numbers that Marvel and DC see are not the sales to customers, but sales to retailers. I've been thinking that if the retailers are noticing a problem of too much stuff from the big two then they need to vote with their $$ and stop ordering the stuff. Much like Dan said in another thread, where he has stopped ordering the .1 issues. Easier said than done, I know, but I don't think we'll see the big two change their ways until retailers do.

[Trev]

As a dealer who does a lot of cons, I don't think those guys are taking a loss on the trades they are selling. They either get them in bulk from stores that go out of business, or they order huge numbers of leftover crap from Diamond at huge discounts. I don't know exactly how that works because I don't deal with Diamond, but I've bought some bulk trades before and I've never spent more than $1 apiece on them.

This sounds right, however, SOMEONE took a bath on these books somewhere upstream, right?

I don't deal with Diamond, and I don't know Brian Hibbs, but from reading the article, maybe he needs to become better at selling comic books.

He's been running a pretty good sized shop in San Francisco for 20+ years and is pretty respected in comics retailing circles (at least by people who've been in the business a while). I think he knows a little bit about selling comics.

Pointing out "the emperor has no clothes" and having a conversation about it does not make someone incompetent at their business.

Have you been there? I would not call it 'good sized'. I can't tell its volume, but I have to say there was some dissonance for me between his writing and his shop.

[BobBretall]

Have you been there? I would not call it 'good sized'. I can't tell its volume, but I have to say there was some dissonance for me between his writing and his shop.

I was more speaking to his apparent clientele/sales (as opposed to square footage). Most places in SF aren't that big physically. Given rents in SF, he'd not be open after 22 years if he was not turning a decent level of sales thru the place.

[Trev]

Have you been there? I would not call it 'good sized'. I can't tell its volume, but I have to say there was some dissonance for me between his writing and his shop.

I was more speaking to his apparent clientele/sales (as opposed to square footage). Most places in SF aren't that big physically. Given rents in SF, he'd not be open after 22 years if he was not turning a decent level of sales thru the place.

Even by sf standards. It's not the square footage that produces the disconnect. Agree that theshop has been around a while and hibbs perspective and writing are interesting. Next time you're in San Fran stop by.

Maybe it's an object lesson on where the bar is for comics fans wrt shop expectations. Kind of like how the tips delta between (bleep) and great service is not high.

[BobBretall]

Maybe it's an object lesson on where the bar is for comics fans wrt shop expectations. Kind of like how the tips delta between (bleep) and great service is not high.

I have been in there (once many years ago). The fact that I never went back is something of a testament that it didn't have that much unique that would cause me to go out of my way to return on subsequent visits to SF. That said, I thought it was more "comic book"-y than Isotope, which seems more airy & avante guard (and which is also not really my cup of tea in a comics shop).

Anyway, I was only commenting that he must have some kind of decent sales/clientele to stay open in San Francisco for 22 years.

[ninjapirategear]

As for damage returns for books and comics, Diamond doesn't usually take those back, we are supposed to destroy them. Sadly I know all too well about this process because I usually have at least 1 item every week that is either missing or damaged. It's interesting considering the number of times I have been in discussions about dealers needing to learn to pack comics correctly, and the giant of the industry can't even manage it.

I bought a bunch of Marvel Essentials, and maybe some other trades, that had loose spines or looked like the printer had mangled them in some way. They were part of a collection of thousands of similar books in similar shape, possibly they were damaged books from the printer that were caught before distribution, or returns from Borders or something. Maybe they were just damages that a large-volume store like Lonestar had sold to somebody, I don't know.

[Danscomics]

As for damage returns for books and comics, Diamond doesn't usually take those back, we are supposed to destroy them. Sadly I know all too well about this process because I usually have at least 1 item every week that is either missing or damaged. It's interesting considering the number of times I have been in discussions about dealers needing to learn to pack comics correctly, and the giant of the industry can't even manage it.

I bought a bunch of Marvel Essentials, and maybe some other trades, that had loose spines or looked like the printer had mangled them in some way. They were part of a collection of thousands of similar books in similar shape, possibly they were damaged books from the printer that were caught before distribution, or returns from Borders or something. Maybe they were just damages that a large-volume store like Lonestar had sold to somebody, I don't know.

Any of those are possible, and I only said that Diamond tells retailers to destroy them, it doesn't necessarily happen. It's possible someone has been buying them up from retailers who opted not to listen.

A lot of times you will here Dan Didio or Joe Quesada, or some one high up at DC or Marvel say "You vote with your $$" and they are talking to fans. But the number we see, and the numbers that Marvel and DC see are not the sales to customers, but sales to retailers. I've been thinking that if the retailers are noticing a problem of too much stuff from the big two then they need to vote with their $$ and stop ordering the stuff. Much like Dan said in another thread, where he has stopped ordering the .1 issues. Easier said than done, I know, but I don't think we'll see the big two change their ways until retailers do.

Yeah, unfortunately us retailers ultimately have the responsibility. It's tough sometimes when we have to order titles 2 months before they are released but it is ultimately those orders that determine the fate of a title. This is where preorders and pull lists become the greatest tool in our arsenal. And I have no problem reducing or dropping a title that I'm selling if the sales aren't there to support it, but I know there are other retailers that won't be quite as quick.

[Tom]

Yeah, unfortunately us retailers ultimately have the responsibility. It's tough sometimes when we have to order titles 2 months before they are released but it is ultimately those orders that determine the fate of a title. This is where preorders and pull lists become the greatest tool in our arsenal. And I have no problem reducing or dropping a title that I'm selling if the sales aren't there to support it, but I know there are other retailers that won't be quite as quick.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but do you do much advertising of your pull list system? I'm real surprised when I go into a comic store and I don't see any info available about a pull list and it's rarely mentioned by the other employees. It seems to me this would be a great tool to gauge what to order (as you said) but also a way to keep people coming in to the store regularly. I would think this would be something that a comic book store owner/staff would shout from the roof tops in order to get more people to have a pull list. Am I missing something or are this retailers missing out on a tool to really help them run their business?

[BobBretall]

I hope you don't mind me asking, but do you do much advertising of your pull list system? I'm real surprised when I go into a comic store and I don't see any info available about a pull list and it's rarely mentioned by the other employees.

This is an EXCELLENT point, Tom. I go into comics shops all the time and rarely see posted adverts for their pull list program.

They tell people if they ask, but lots of people don't even know that such things exist.

[Trev]

I hope you don't mind me asking, but do you do much advertising of your pull list system? I'm real surprised when I go into a comic store and I don't see any info available about a pull list and it's rarely mentioned by the other employees.

This is an EXCELLENT point, Tom. I go into comics shops all the time and rarely see posted adverts for their pull list program.

They tell people if they ask, but lots of people don't even know that such things exist.

I think this mostly has to do with the nature of pull lists. They are not prepaid. They are essentially a shift of risk. In exchange for a promise to pay, the retailer orders and pulls books for you. Sometimes there's a discount involved. You give the retailer better insight on demand, he commits dollars, and you get some convenience and a sense of loyalty to the store.

If you advertise the service in store then you generally incur a higher percentage of flakiness (people not picking up or abandoning books). Reducing profits and sticking you with potentially extra inventory. Better to have details upon request or wait until you've seen someone cone in regularly and not use a pull list. Then suggest one to that person.

The only store around here who advertises a pull service doesn't really do one. Essentially you submit a firm each week with all the books you want listed and they hold the books for you. It isn't a traditional 'standing order' pull service.

Every other store offers traditional pull service by request, but no discounting.

[BobBretall]

I think this mostly has to do with the nature of pull lists. They are not prepaid. They are essentially a shift of risk. In exchange for a promise to pay, the retailer orders and pulls books for you. Sometimes there's a discount involved. You give the retailer better insight on demand, he commits dollars, and you get some convenience and a sense of loyalty to the store.

But there is no "Bible of pull lists", so a store COULD implement a pre-paid pull list if they wanted to.....AND give a better discount to people who pre-pay, removing their risk.

I once patronized a store (back in the 80s) that did their pull lists this way. I got 20% off by pre-paying.

Of course, this is how the mail order companies like DCBS work too, and it allows them to remove the risk of people not buying what is pre-ordered and offer the discounts also.

[Danscomics]

Sorry for the delay in responding, I had a busy weekend and no time to check the forums.

I want to start out by saying at this very moment I do not have a physical store front. I'm working on one and with the City of Troy's cooperation we will be opening on June 17th.

I have tried prominently advertising my online subscription service over the years it has been available (it was one of the first things that I set up after opening) and have had little luck. However, I have been revamping it for the opening of my store front and plan to prominently advertise it. I just need to figure out exactly how I'm going to go about it once I have a better feel for how the store is laid out and where a sign would be best placed.

I'm actually going to structure it with 2 possibilities (which I came up with after reading through opinions on this forum ). I'm going to offer a traditional pull service and something similar to a subscription service. The difference being that the subscription service would require you to leave a credit card on file that would be charged on some regular basis for your books. The main benefit of the subscription over the pull list for the customer would be the size of the discount you received.

So anyway, the answer to the original question is yes, I plan to advertise our pull/subscription service (I call it the Comic Collector's Club) because I understand how beneficial it can be to me. I think that the reason I see that and others don't though is at least partially because I am a newer retailer. It seems like most established shops have found what works for them and are just sticking to it. That's why I still find a lot of local comic shops have barely any web presence and I think that might be why some are starting to struggle. But that is a different topic.