DC Dominating "Top 10" but coming in #2

BobBretall · Post by **BobBretall** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:50 pm

We talk about this on the "Mayo Report" episodes all the time (most recently here: http://www.comicbookpage.com/Podcast/?p=526 )

and I just read an interesting article on Newsarama on the topic also:
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/op-ed-w ... 10422.html

have a look at the above (it's a short read) & come discuss. What do you think?

abysslord · Post by **abysslord** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:02 pm

That is pretty interesting. As the article touched upon, I guess it's just DC has really good books, or really devoted fans for those top books, and then the rest is just blah. Maybe the middle area of Marvel has more devoted fans than the middle area of DC? Or Marvel has more "flagship" titles?

I see people saying DC's $2.99 hasn't really gotten them more money, but it looked kind of like they didn't lose any. So if you mark your comics down a buck but still pull in the same amount of money, doesn't that mean you increased readership?

Trev · Post by **Trev** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:03 pm

I think it's because DC lets so many of the mid-list titles do their own thing -- which I love, but probably hurts sales.

So many of the DC midlist titles give us what we say we want -- standalone continuity (more or less), great stories, good art, etc. but then the general comics fan drops them in favor of Marvel books that tie to the broader universe better.

From my perspective, I would put most DC midlist against Marvel midlist head to head and would probably find better books overall. But you can easily put them aside in a way that you can't with Marvel books.

What I've found on Marvel is that you basically have to go 'all in' in order to follow them easily and maintain coherence (with a few minor exceptions). With DC, you can pick and choose and there's something for everybody. That's why I end up with so few marvel books every month.

The comic buying public rarely buys what they *say* they want, and always says something different with their $$.

Paul Nolan · Post by **Paul Nolan** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:32 pm

Trev wrote:I think it's because DC lets so many of the mid-list titles do their own thing -- which I love, but probably hurts sales.

So many of the DC midlist titles give us what we say we want -- standalone continuity (more or less), great stories, good art, etc. but then the general comics fan drops them in favor of Marvel books that tie to the broader universe better.

From my perspective, I would put most DC midlist against Marvel midlist head to head and would probably find better books overall. But you can easily put them aside in a way that you can't with Marvel books.

What I've found on Marvel is that you basically have to go 'all in' in order to follow them easily and maintain coherence (with a few minor exceptions). With DC, you can pick and choose and there's something for everybody. That's why I end up with so few marvel books every month.

You know, that is EXACTLY what I would say, but with the companies reversed. A avoid most DC book like the plague because of them consistently tying in to each other.

The three books I pick up from DCU (THUNDER Agents, Xombi, and Batman Beyond) I pick up because there's little to no chance of them tying into something.

spid · Post by **spid** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:42 am

I think one of DC's problems is they have not spread the wealth around. I have felt as a casual DC reader that if a book is not written by Johns or Morrison than DC does not care about it. They do not push their other talent at the same level. Take a look at the names on top of DC's event books. It is either Johns or Morrison without fail.

Over at Marvel you had Bendis, Millar, Brubaker, Pak, Abnett/Lanning, and now Fraction all taking a crack at telling the event story. Not to mention giving a lot guys like Hickman, Aarons, Slott, Gage, Van Lente, etc a lot of promotion on the titles they are working on. And most of these guys have been given a run of issues to do their own thing. For the most part you know the same writers (at least) will be on the title your reading. I can not say the same thing for DC. As I say I am casual DC reader so maybe I am wrong.

Paul Nolan · Post by **Paul Nolan** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:19 am

The difference, I've always felt, is that the editorial dictat from DC seems to be to just rush everything on what a writer has been doing to jump into a crossover story-line.

Marvel's segues into crossover or new universe status quo's have always seemed less jarring.

Trev · Post by **Trev** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:33 pm

Paul Nolan wrote:The difference, I've always felt, is that the editorial dictat from DC seems to be to just rush everything on what a writer has been doing to jump into a crossover story-line.

Marvel's segues into crossover or new universe status quo's have always seemed less jarring.

remember we are talking about mid-list titles. totally agree on x-overs. certainly how they hosed up Dwayne McDuffie. but Peter David tells similar tales of Marvel.

In the mid-list, I feel like DC does more experimentation and gives more editorial free-reign whereas Marvel pushes more of the midlist directly into universe wide continuity.

Though it could just be my consumption patterns that show that.

Certainly I see DC as more willing to try something interesting and see what happens. And there are truly great mid-list DC books that can't seem to catch a break with readers, sadly.

spid · Post by **spid** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:48 am

Trev wrote:
In the mid-list, I feel like DC does more experimentation and gives more editorial free-reign whereas Marvel pushes more of the midlist directly into universe wide continuity.

Though it could just be my consumption patterns that show that.

Certainly I see DC as more willing to try something interesting and see what happens. And there are truly great mid-list DC books that can't seem to catch a break with readers, sadly.

Outside of Vertigo what experimentation are you seeing in DC? I do not see it when I look through the solicitations so I am curious what you are seeing.

Paul Nolan · Post by **Paul Nolan** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:52 am

and lest not forget the farce of shifting Nick Spencer off Supergirl after 3/4 of an issue becuase editorial didn't like it. only to realize Readers really liked it after the fact.

BobBretall · Post by **BobBretall** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:34 am

spid wrote: Outside of Vertigo what experimentation are you seeing in DC? I do not see it when I look through the solicitations so I am curious what you are seeing.

* First Wave (+ Spirit, Doc Savage) - failed, but they gave it a shot
* R.E.B.E.L.S. - canceled, but they gave it a shot & very well done.
* Xombi - VERY different title.
* Weird Worlds - the 2 non-Lobo stories are different & "out there"
* Jonah Hex - this is an ongoing "experiment" as the only mainstream western kept alive even though sales are not stellar
* Freedom Fighters - Giving a title to this group of very unknown characters, again, not well-received by the fans & canceled, but the book itself was quality
* THUNDER Agents - very different from a "standard" super-hero book & one of the best books coming out from DC right now.
* The Mighty - Wow, what a different & great book. Didn't last.
* Dead Romeo - Vampire book under "normal DC" banner. Canceled
* Simon Dark - Dark book set in Gotham, but not really integrated into Batman family

This is a list off the top of my head. I also think that Marvel has similar "experimental" things they try out. The similar factor is that the experimental stuff usually sells really poorly.

Vernson · Post by **Vernson** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:47 pm

Is this simply because Marvel releases more titles on a monthly basis compared to DC (or anyone else for that matter)?

It seems Marvel's business plan is to fill more shelf space hoping they will sell more variety compared to a select few titles. Sure, individual titles may not sell as well, but with the sheer quantity of product Marvel releases, books will find their way into consumer's hands and will therefore take up a majority of the market share. At least that's how I interpret the article.

Trev · Post by **Trev** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:04 pm

Vernson wrote:Is this simply because Marvel releases more titles on a monthly basis compared to DC (or anyone else for that matter)?

It seems Marvel's business plan is to fill more shelf space hoping they will sell more variety compared to a select few titles. Sure, individual titles may not sell as well, but with the sheer quantity of product Marvel releases, books will find their way into consumer's hands and will therefore take up a majority of the market share. At least that's how I interpret the article.

for sure Marvel releases more titles. but I think the point of the article is that although DC dominates the top 10 now, marvel places significantly more books in the midlist than DC. so DC has more books above say 40-50k AND more books in the 20k and under range.

would be interesting to plot both companies on a per title basis. I would guess a steeper drop from DC with marvel showing a significantly greater number of titles in the 20k-40k range.

fwiw, this is just what I would guess constitutes mid-list. My numbers have no basis in fact (yet).

BobBretall · Post by **BobBretall** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:15 pm

Vernson wrote:Is this simply because Marvel releases more titles on a monthly basis compared to DC (or anyone else for that matter)?

Well, in March DC put out 85 items on the Top 300 to Marvel's 129 items.

HOWEVER, if you add up JUST the top 85 for both you get:
Marvel 2,666,385 units -> 85th item at rank 152
DC 2,008,941 -> 85th item at rank 299

SO, it looks like Marvel is, in fact, beating DC by 25% even with the same # of titles, and MORE titles in the top half of the list, even though they don't win the Top 10.

spid · Post by **spid** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:52 am

BobBretall wrote:
spid wrote: Outside of Vertigo what experimentation are you seeing in DC? I do not see it when I look through the solicitations so I am curious what you are seeing.

* First Wave (+ Spirit, Doc Savage) - failed, but they gave it a shot
* R.E.B.E.L.S. - canceled, but they gave it a shot & very well done.
* Xombi - VERY different title.
* Weird Worlds - the 2 non-Lobo stories are different & "out there"
* Jonah Hex - this is an ongoing "experiment" as the only mainstream western kept alive even though sales are not stellar
* Freedom Fighters - Giving a title to this group of very unknown characters, again, not well-received by the fans & canceled, but the book itself was quality
* THUNDER Agents - very different from a "standard" super-hero book & one of the best books coming out from DC right now.
* The Mighty - Wow, what a different & great book. Didn't last.
* Dead Romeo - Vampire book under "normal DC" banner. Canceled
* Simon Dark - Dark book set in Gotham, but not really integrated into Batman family

This is a list off the top of my head. I also think that Marvel has similar "experimental" things they try out. The similar factor is that the experimental stuff usually sells really poorly.

Ahh, I was equating experimental with different from what Marvel is doing. So yes they are offering something different than there regular super-hero lineup, but not a lot different from Marvel's fringe books.

Vernson · Post by **Vernson** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:07 am

BobBretall wrote:
Vernson wrote:Is this simply because Marvel releases more titles on a monthly basis compared to DC (or anyone else for that matter)?
Well, in March DC put out 85 items on the Top 300 to Marvel's 129 items.

HOWEVER, if you add up JUST the top 85 for both you get:
Marvel 2,666,385 units -> 85th item at rank 152
DC 2,008,941 -> 85th item at rank 299

SO, it looks like Marvel is, in fact, beating DC by 25% even with the same # of titles, and MORE titles in the top half of the list, even though they don't win the Top 10.

And this is all without the aid of having a universal event or multiple cross-overs to aid any ancillary, or less popular character titles, yes?

This could be interpreted a few different ways I suppose.

One, the creative talent isn't up to par with the better selling titles, thus turning off readers.
Two, readers don't care about some of the less familiar characters within a given universe, thus, don't buy them.
Three, the promotion on some of these books isn't as large or is simply absent and nobody hears anything about some of these books, thus ignores them.
Four, books are expensive. People need to make tough choices and thus many books are left unread.
Five, any combination of these.

Now with that said, I know Marvel has multiple shipping/release dates on some of their better known characters within a single month. This, on the whole, must have a positive effect on sales, otherwise why continue with that stratagem?